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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Jan 7, 2003 7:31am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many?

Some copies are plainly inferior to others, while some are marginaly different

As Brad has pointed out before, it is extremely rare that any one actually compares sources. If some are clearly inferior than others, than it probably makes sense to get rid of them (now we get into arguments of what is better - some listeners prefer certain types of recordings over others, e.g. audience over soundboard). No use in providing something of inferior quality to users when something better is available. But in order to know what is of poor quality, someone actually has to say something. So far the vast majority of users just download, they don't leave reviews or feedback.

I'd love to see some comparative reviews.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbleblanc Date: Jan 7, 2003 11:33am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many?

Tucker wrote:
when does it become to much? Some copies are plainly inferior to others

At some point we are going to have to draw a line. If the fans don't care enough to compare the sources, then I like Matt's suggestion that we get rid of the sources with the least hits. Since nobody is interested in Mike Vernal's 12/21, then we get rid of his and stick with Scott's.

Best get on them now while there are 10 around to compare to figure out which ones are keepers. (I guarantee that Mike Vernal's 12/21 is a keeper, Mike does a fantastic job.)

It doesn't take all that much to say "I like this one better than these 4 because it's got better bass." Don't be shy, nobody will get offended if their tapes weren't the best that night. If they do, then they're in the wrong hobby.

-Brad

This post was modified by bleblanc57 on 2003-01-07 19:33:08

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Jan 7, 2003 12:17pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many?

I'm worried about dropping the ones with lowest # of hits because "the rich get richer." Consider the following example:

The first copy of DMB 12/21/02 got posted immediately after the show. It got some 5,000 directory visits that day. Now it's at the top of the most visited shows list and it's high on the batting averages list. Furthermore, when browsing, a user might just think "ahhh, I have five options and I know nothing about which will sound better, so let's just download the one that seems the most popular - the one with the most directory visits." The user is unlikely to download a different source unless he or she finds the first one to be really unsatisfactory.

I think reviews are the answer. I think we need a group like Dankseeds to compare all the available sources. A group of people could download a track or two from each source (the same song(s)) and compare using headphones or a high quality sound system. For those who are really passionate about the music, this isn't much of a chore.

It's entirely possible that the source for the aforementioned show is the worst of the five (I have no idea, haven't heard it or any of the others), but it far exceeds the number of downloads any of the other sources have and, if I'm right about the rich getting richer, will continue to have far more than the others.

Thoughts?

In regards to different transfers but same source, perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about, but that seems a little off the wall to me. How much can the transfer affect sound quality? Can the experts weigh in on this one?

Jon

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Poster: dan Date: Jan 7, 2003 12:57pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many?

I know that the sound quality matters, and I can tell the difference between a good tape and a bad tape, but I'm sure that I don't know enough about taping and the qualities of different mics/rigs to be able tell what I prefer. Usually I'm too lazy to try to download different sources unless I have a bad copy, especially since finding more sources can be a chore. The archive changes this.

Would it be possible for someone to make/point to a good (simple, not overly technical) faq? I tried looking into it once, but what I found was a little over my head and I didn't want to spend tons of time figuring stuff out.

If I knew the difference between rigs, I would be more likely to try more copies, or pick something other than the most commonly downloaded.

Thanks.

-Dan

This post was modified by dan on 2003-01-07 20:57:15

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Poster: Erich Date: Jan 7, 2003 4:05pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many?

but the shows with 5+ sources are in minimal quanity. Honestly i feel they can be left up. If you want to prevent that, put a cap of like 5 sources to one show or whatever, and dont allow more in unless it replaces a source. there are only a few times where the sources get to that quantity, and thats for the very overhyped shows (for dmb - gorge, msg, special guest, that solo show in september). Otherwise its 1-3 sources max.

I wont dispute though that 10 sources is fucking ridiculous. half of me says keep it for the archive, its a good way to document each show. The other half says the free uploading without fan based quality checks causes ridiculous room for pure shit to be uploaded. I remember the first source for the opening date of dmbs 2000 winter tour that came out, and that was a patheticly weak and quiet MD source sent only for the sake of getting out prospected new songs. If the archive was around then it wouldve been up, and I dont know if people wouldve wanted that after the next good source came out.

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Poster: willg825 Date: Jan 8, 2003 1:48am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many?

I think what is happening with the archive is tapers are using it as a server to get their sources out. Therefore, I dont think the shows that have 5+ sources will be minimal in the future... especially for a band like dmb that typically has many tapers, all (90%) of whom are on the tapers list, convert to shn and upload. its a serious question that must be answered. At some point, disk space will become an issue (right?) and I think its better to have 10 different concerts than one concert with 10 different sources.

The only way to solve this seems to be some sort of vote, a few months after the sources are released... have people download different tracks from all the sources, and then they vote on which one they like best. Top 3 (4? 5?) stay...

[edit] I should add that this would allow hardcore collectors of SHNs to download all the different sources, so every source "gets out there" but only a few stay in the long run, so archiving is achieved with disk space in mind... [/edit]
-will

This post was modified by willg825 on 2003-01-08 09:48:40

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Poster: one2drew Date: Jan 7, 2003 12:09pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many?

Let me do what I can for now...

12/16- The AKG 480/ck61 is my favorite hands downs. Crisp as can be.

12/17- I like the dpa4022 best. Nice high end, smooth throughout.

12/20- I like the mk41 but I don't think the archive has it. Can't comment on the others at this point.

12/21- once again I prefer the dpa4022. I am a lunatec fan so that makes a difference. This night was a tough tape due to difficulty getting tix and the energy of the crowd. Good job considering all the factors.

12/22- most tapes are the same from that night. The stacks were way to high and consequently everything sounds like it was taped from the section. I would give a small edge to the akg ck63 tape. But the difference is inconsequential.

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Poster: scott brown Date: Jan 7, 2003 12:52pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many?

>>12/22- most tapes are the same from that night. The stacks were way to high and consequently everything sounds like it was taped from the section<<

i disagree...

in regards to polls for what sounds the best, too often i find that people listen on crappy computer speakers and think that some sources sound like ass just because it doesn't sound good on their 4 inch computer speakers with cardboard cones, so even that doesn't always tell the story...

i can' think of any good solution...

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Jan 7, 2003 12:25pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many?

Awesome feedback. Can you leave it as a review on the appropriate details pages?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffmedlhuber Date: Jan 7, 2003 9:10am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many?

10 sources for 1 show is nutz if you ask me. Seems like a waste of server space. 1 B&K, 1 Shepz, 1 Neumann etc seems more than substantial..

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jan 7, 2003 10:15am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many?

1 B&K, 1 Shepz, 1 Neumann etc seems more than substantial.

So, in the absence of reviews, which B&K, Schoeps etc would those be??

BTW I think we've seen over and over again around etree before the archive, that the first seed out of the gate is not necessarily the best one.

This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-01-07 18:15:34

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Jan 7, 2003 10:18am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many?

And we've seen at the Archive that the first seed out of the gate is the one that everyone downloads, even when other sources appear (the "rich get richer").

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffmedlhuber Date: Jan 7, 2003 10:15am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many?

Well its hard to say, cause everyone has different tastes, I mean you look at mics, then go down the chain, some people hate the lunatec preamp, and another person may not like an ADC-20 A>D versus an apogee. Its a hard call to make I guess, being biased over 1 source over another, but 10 sources for 1 show is too many IMO.

Instead of looking at the source lineage, what if the decision was made in regards to popularity. Like lets say you have a dmb show with 10 sources right.....and after 6 months, you take a look at how much each one was downloaded. Lets say 50 people downloaded a Neumann KM140 tape, while there was a Scheops that got 20 and a B&K that got 10, and a bunch that got less than 5. You could just say the top 3 sources stay and the others go. While one could argue that the others that were less than 5 downloads each could be better than one that had 50 downloads, the people are saying its better because if it was terrible they wouldnt have grabbed it or they just have no taste in quality.

Again, i'm not trying to say one source is better than another, but this is an archive where space can become an issue, I think keeping essentially duplicate copies of everything isnt practical. Go to your local library, I doubt they have any books bound on a black cover, a red cover, and a blue cover just cause they different superficially.

Again, i'm just thinking here, trying to find a solution without pointing my finger at anyone saying your tape does not belong here, or mine is better than yours.

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Poster: datgeek Date: Jan 7, 2003 11:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many?

hmm... I can see leaving multiple setups... I like as many choices as are out there

But...
what do we think about this example. when the Rig is the SAME source, and the TRANSFER is different...


i.e.
UM Bonnaroo
Source 1 >
Source: SBD + AKG414B-ULS cardioids > Allen Heath WZ14:4:2+ delay > Apogee AD1000 > DA-P1 (@ 44.1)
Lineage: DA-P1 > HP8565 > Cool Edit Pro > WAV > Mitsui 80min CDR
http://archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=599

Source 2 >
Source: TEAM UM SOURCE SBD (Delayed via TC D-Two) + AKG414B-ULS > Allen Heath WZ14:4:2+ > PCM-R500 > DA-P1 @ 48k
Lineage: PCM-R300 > ZA2 > SForge > Samplitude > CDWAV > SHN
http://archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=1020

the 3rd source is a different rig..
AKG C3000 (Card) > EDirol UA-5@24/48 > Sony VIAO FX-A36 > WavLab > .wav 44/16 > CDWave > mkwACT > .shn
http://archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=2179

thoughts ?
(adding to the confusion)

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Poster: kmmccorm Date: Jan 8, 2003 3:19am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many?


as far as I know, the story behind these dual SBD sources is that someone was patched into the Matrix rig, converted the DAT to SHN, and began to spread it. after this initial source received some critical listening, there were some noticeable flaws in the transfer. the master was feared to be flawed for a while, but after Team Umphreaks got a hold of it and re-transferred, all was well again.

this > http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=1020 should be the correct SBD source for this show (the AUD recording rocks as well!)

-----
what do we think about this example. when the Rig is the SAME source, and the TRANSFER is different...

i.e.
UM Bonnaroo
Source 1 >
Source: SBD + AKG414B-ULS cardioids
Lineage: DA-P1 > HP8565 > Cool Edit Pro > WAV > Mitsui 80min CDR

Source 2 >
Source: TEAM UM SOURCE SBD (Delayed via TC D-Two) + AKG414B-ULS
Lineage: PCM-R300 > ZA2 > SForge > Samplitude > CDWAV > SHN

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Poster: datgeek Date: Jan 8, 2003 4:33am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many? (Same Source Diff Transfer)

OK so there ARE differnces in the shows, in this case one has flaws... I just happen to use this as an example I ran accross but are there othe cases like this ? and if so, should we make notes on them saying "This one has Flaws get XXX source instead" or take down the flawed source... or should multiple transfers from the same source be left up ?

OK similar but different case
24bit & 16bit versions of shows... from the same source
I assume this is fine and dandy to have both on the archive ? (space not being a problem that is)

PS while I am on the 24bit subject, I have only uploaded 1 24bit show so far the KW 8-10-2002 show, anyone want more 24bit shows ?

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Poster: tucker Date: Jan 9, 2003 1:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: How many sources are too many? (Same Source Diff Transfer)

I would really love more 24 bit shows! :)

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Poster: datgeek Date: Jan 10, 2003 1:21am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: 24bit

hmm... request ?

24bit offerings
Bela 8-10-2002 (Grassroots)
Bela 6-8-2002 (Smilefest)
SKB 6-8-2002 (Smilefest)
Trout 11-16-2002 (Attic, Greenville NC)
KDTU 6-8-2002 (Smilefest)

I have others, this is just a few I know I have off the top of my head

request ??

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Poster: tucker Date: Jan 10, 2003 1:31am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: 24bit

Bella and KDTU? Your making me drool :)